tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-395948500312534280.post3439889408932803680..comments2024-02-25T01:48:45.848-07:00Comments on Mr. Center's Wall: Alice in Wonderland VIII -- chapter 5: ADULTS ARE ALL WONDERFUL MONSTERSJoseph Centerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00090686611405364311noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-395948500312534280.post-49488451497525240592011-02-14T07:50:26.197-07:002011-02-14T07:50:26.197-07:00Of course, as we're seeing through Alice's...Of course, as we're seeing through Alice's eyes. This is a good perspective. I've never given the "adults" any benefit.Joseph Centerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00090686611405364311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-395948500312534280.post-74668898958665844032011-02-13T20:52:00.674-07:002011-02-13T20:52:00.674-07:00It's a good question. My take has always been...It's a good question. My take has always been something like this: The adults aren't idiots, but society corrupts them. Everything that "maturity" roots out is what Carroll loves. And the only way to recover it causes one to appear mad, as Alice does to the rest of the characters in Wonderland. Of course, the irony is that the reader understands all of THEM to be mad.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11708022607046379611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-395948500312534280.post-36164424320374582802011-02-13T20:39:51.230-07:002011-02-13T20:39:51.230-07:00Okay, so I've been thinking the past fifteen m...Okay, so I've been thinking the past fifteen minutes or so. Maybe I've been reading this wrong all these years (quite likely, and always the best reason to read anything again): are the adults indeed idiots, generally, or are they simply incompatible, socially, with Alice and children? I am, of course, curious about what you think at this point, but this is a question I want to hold on to. Honestly, I think that perhaps on the Queen is the idiot, but I'm keeping an open mind about her as well.Joseph Centerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00090686611405364311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-395948500312534280.post-17529335181958115122011-02-13T20:20:04.741-07:002011-02-13T20:20:04.741-07:00Yeah, I had to defend the pigeon. I thought that ...Yeah, I had to defend the pigeon. I thought that the pigeon was fairly clever in a roundabout way.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11708022607046379611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-395948500312534280.post-65339644882867706982011-02-13T20:00:51.417-07:002011-02-13T20:00:51.417-07:002. I agree.
4. I think it's just a repetition ...2. I agree.<br />4. I think it's just a repetition of Carroll's distaste for grownups. Why not act like kids all the time, and no matter how old you are? Is that "deeper?" Not really. Mostly, I just really love, and have always loved, this poem; it's really fun to read out loud.<br />5. I agree, but I think there's a simpler element here, too. While I didn't have such a problem with my students--after all, they're older, and no matter how I claimed otherwise, they weren't MY kids, not like my KIDS--I find myself falling easily into a very short temper with my children and even getting offended at their common lack of, what I think they should have, gratitude or other "proper" responses. I OFTEN have to remind myself, hey, they're just kids; and what kind of a grownup and I turning out to be?<br />6. I think Carroll might actually be giving the grownups a little bit of credit here. Kids, mine and students alike, are often AMAZED at what I can predict from what they're intending, thinking, or about to say. It's not so hard: I've been there, after all. That and kids, to a pretty significant degree, are my business. I'm not the only one, and I expect Carroll would have been quite capable of this sort of "mind reading."<br />7. Yes.<br />9. That's a really clear way to put it. I couldn't quite articulate it. Thanks!<br />10. Okay. I'll concede that the pigeon is not an idiot--at least not altogether, and not compared, I guess, to others down here. Thankfully the pigeon's actual intelligence or whatever doesn't alter my point.Joseph Centerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00090686611405364311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-395948500312534280.post-47523225943819374452011-02-13T19:02:32.312-07:002011-02-13T19:02:32.312-07:002. The last, I think.
4. I'd like to hear what...2. The last, I think.<br />4. I'd like to hear what you think with regard to the narrative. As far as the poem, I think it's typical of Carroll. The book's very iconoclastic. Typically, especially then I would imagine, we respect old people, and he makes light of them.<br />5. I think that it mocks the many unnecessary graces and the etiquette of society.<br />6. Does he read her mind or her expression? <br />7. Not sure. I would just take two pieces that are polar opposites.<br />8. Yep, I noticed that, too. So I was wrong.<br />9. Alice's frankness is totally contrary to the ways of adults, who, as I said earlier use many sometimes unnecessary means of etiquette. When these are violated, they feel snubbed, even if what was said was perhaps all not that bad. What I find most interesting about the serpent scene is the utilitarian definition of the bird. "Anyone who eats my eggs is effectively a serpent." Well, that's one way to classify it! And to the bird, it's a much more useful classification than species. <br />10. No, no, no! The pigeon is not an idiot! The pigeon is expressing a more relevant truth. But yes, he does have a habit of demeaning them, and I think you're right on track.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11708022607046379611noreply@blogger.com